Put some damn clothes on!

What think I? Methinks you’ve hit the nail on the head, Mr. Timothy.

Now… is anyone that’s guilty of this actually going to *listen* ?

Tim ~

I agree completely. While I think it is important to maintain a sense of individuality and independence while traveling, the only way to truly respect a culture is to follow – to a certain extent – its cultural rules. Some things are just not acceptable. If travelers can’t respect local cultural rules, they shouldn’t to be treated with respect by the local population in return. Thanks for the great post (and the ridiculous pictures).

You are talking about respecting local people, but when reading your article I feel like you don’t respect me – the reader. You are being too harsh and it makes you come across as a real dick. You are the person I would not want to meet on my travels. It sounds like you think you are better than everyone else… and I think that’s more offensive than even the worst fashion/cultural/travel mistakes. Please don’t write any more articles like this. Real crap.

AMEN! Thank you for this article. I was just in Luang Prabang, Laos and this was epidemic! The guest house I stayed actually placed a very nice laminated card on the bed at check-in asking their guests to please show respect to the locals by dressing appropriately and even went so far as to show what was appropriate and what was not. This gracious plea by the local management was largely ignored. The biggest offenders were a crowd of European and American Buddhists on a yoga retreat. They proffered a spiritual arrogance even unmatched to what I see living in Santa Fe and declared that clothes do not make the man. Their total lack of respect and grace was really offensive and even made me think about turning in my Buddha card.

Having been born and raised in very hot and humid Southeast Asia, i have to say that unless you’re in a rural or semi-urban area, it might be alright to wear that tank top. Major cities usually pay scant attention to tourists, but anything beyond the inner urban border anywhere in the world, it’s best to tone down the dressing.

Admittedly, tank tops, tubes, halters etc sometimes draw untoward attention from local men, so dressing down will be a safer option, not only for propriety’s sake.

But you have made a strong case against a certain type of backpacker who waltzs in backpack tow, skanky dress and way too much beer money. Travellers like that usually go abroad to find the best parties, get smashed and (unwittingly) pick up strange diseases. They’re also usually very young and fresh out of high school. Thankfully a large number of travellers are beginning to become culturally aware

Excellent points, Michaela! I think you’re completely right that it’s not so much the clothes (or lack thereof) that are offensive, but the attitude that goes along with them. The sense of, “I’m here to grace this hammock all day with my presence, and I want cold beers and stories of exoticism and modern amenities, too…” The sense of entitlement, in a word.

But I don’t think, obviously, that all travelers that dress…um, scantily…think that way. And I also think that if you take Tim’s argument and flip it around it looks shockingly conservative and right-wing (sorry, Tim, you know how I love to play devil’s advocate!)

For example: “imagine what your grandparents would say if rich, rowdy, foreigners – perhaps Russians, or Africans, or Eskimos – started pouring into your hometown wearing nothing but body paint, leather boots and thongs.”

Well, to be fair, I’m not sure what my grandma would say, but I would hope that the goal of travel is that people can exchange different cultural practices and values instead of trying to rapidly assimilate into wherever they’re traveling without giving any evidence of being outsiders. If we follow your logic here, then indigenous people in Mexico should not wear their traditional garb outside of their villages as it might be construed as shocking. And Africans or Russians or Papua New Guineans should be forced to change into Western clothing so as not to offend the locals in the U.S or Canada. Isn’t the point of cultural exchange and mutual tolerance lost here? And isn’t this, to some extent, a policy of forced assimilation?

To give another example: the huge debate in France a few years back about the use of the burka. Now, France is the premier example of forced assimilation. You can immigrate there, but you must become French. The burka law followed in this tradition–schools banned Muslim women from wearing burkas, saying it was against women’s rights and French law. This was lambasted as being a very right-wing policy.

So I think I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Although my grandma is probably firmly on your side.

Haha, great post Tim. I don’t know how to reconcile this with my attachment to the universal, cultural-relativity-be-damned, destruction of sexual prudishness, but there must be a way!

Eva – I agree that forcing women to cover excessively (I’m thinking of the burka) is oppressive – but I hardly see how wearing a T-shirt that covers your shoulders, rather than a tank top is terribly oppressive.

I wholeheartedly agree with the statement about showering and using soap. I don’t understand why so many people use travel as an excuse to be completely disgusting and smelly. Millions of people around the world keep clean with just a bucket of water and a bar of soap, so you really have no excuse!

Thanks for all the comments everybody, really thoughtful perspectives. Michaela, I especially appreciate your note.

I agree with Sarah – Emily Hanson’s article published on BNT does a great job of exploring the flip side of this issue. If you’ve read this far down in the comments, it’s a must read:

http://www.bravenewtraveler.com/2009/04/01/where-to-draw-the-line-when-defending-cultural-norms/

Matt, I don’t know where the Kuang Si photo came from. That community connection bit automatically goes into any article that I label “Laos”. I’ll ask around. We often use creative commons photos from flickr, but if that’s the case it should be attributed. Maybe it’s a coincidence? I’ve stood in that exact spot myself a few times in the last couple of years (and winced while bikini clad backpackers dove into the pool).

@Tim But locals don’t bother with skanky farang dressing. They raise their eyebrows, shake their heads and leave the tourists be. No one’s going to raise a ruckus over dressing because there’s a mutual understand that tourists.. well. They’re tourists.

@thecat See above discussion. I think Sarah did a very nice job of clarifying — I wasn’t suggesting that women in more conservative areas are oppressed if they cover up, necessarily, but that in Western culture, covering up — for our own historical and not-so-historical reasons — is *widely viewed as oppressive*.

So on the one hand, you have a culture where dressing down gets you viewed as looking like a hooker, and on the other hand you have a culture where being told what to wear is viewed as a symbol of oppression. Is there no room for compromise, middle ground or mutual understanding? Or, because I’m a visitor, do I have to abandon my cultural norms entirely (and yes, it is culture/politics for me, not just fashion / wanting nice tan lines or whatever) and forcibly conform to the culture I’m visiting?

In my book, cultural respect is a two-way street. I would never expect someone visiting Canada to change their style of dress to match what surrounded them — nor would I tolerate them coming to my country and calling me a whore for the way I dress. When I visit their country, I can likewise respect their traditions without necessarily embracing them.

I read about a lot of people on this site want to really experience the cultures they visit. If you really want to experience, you need to fit in to a certain extent. One easy way to fit in is by dressing, to the extent possible, like the locals dress. If you’re in a culture where the clothes you typically wear are offensive, you shouldn’t wear them. You wouldn’t want to offend anyone, would you? It won’t hurt you to dress more modestly for a short while. It might even give you a better feel for the area you’re visiting. It will also show respect for the people who live there, rather than showing disrespect by dressing any way you see fit, without regard for their sensibilities. If you can’t respect the area you plan to go to, don’t go.

Eva, I didn’t say I’m offended by the way people dress anywhere. Anyone can dress any way they want, in my opinion. But since people in many other cultures are offended by what they see as immodest dress, if you go somewhere where local dress dictates that you cover up more than you’re used to, it doesn’t hurt to do it. I’m not going to walk around in shorts and a tank top in a Muslim country where everyone else is covered. I’d feel uncomfortable, and I’d probably make a lot of other people feel uncomfortable too. Not many people where you or I are from care how modestly people dress. But since people in some other countries feel very strongly about it, I’m going to respect their feelings and dress appropriately for their culture.

I have a few thoughts on this. While I understand the argument that women (and men) should be able to dress however they want, especially if they don’t want to conform to fashion standards set by “patriarchal oppression,” I think it’s important to note that wearing a low-cut top doesn’t make you equal. There are unequal, patriarchal societies where women have worn far less, just as much as there are more equal societies where women traditionally wear more. The amount of clothing one wears is not necessarily inversely proportial to the degree of oppression one experiences.

While there have been a lot of comments here about, “Well, would you take offense if you saw a woman in America walking around in abaya?”, I think you fail to see the point. Imagine how you would feel if you got on a subway in New York and found yourself next to a group of tourists who were wearing this: http://www.artphotogallery.org/02/artphotogallery/database/peter_gasser_tr19.jpg.While you might not say anything out of politeness, most of you would probably feel a little uncomfortable. That doesn’t mean how they are dressing is bad or wrong, that it means they are sluts for bearing their breasts, or anything like that. We all understand, or should understand, that there is basic cultural difference in terms of what body parts people are comfortable seeing and what body parts people aren’t as comfortable seeing. That is why you are asked to dress modestly–that is to say, in a t-shirt and longer shorts rather than a tank top and daisy dukes–in other countries. It is an issue of respect for local custom and standards, whatever they may be based upon.

My final thought is this: when you are traveling, I hope you are not doing so solely for the purpose of delivering lectures on patriarchy, sexism, and oppression to locals and telling them how wrong they are for thinking or acting as they do. If you are traveling in order to experience a new culture or see new things, I would assume you are at least as interested in learning as you are in preaching sermons to any hapless local who happens to be made a little nervous by your bare shoulders or cleavage. If you DO want to learn or experience the culture more naturally, put on some clothes, because trust me, not wearing much will change how people treat you and how you experience things. And if you’re actually there on some political mission–which I’m doubtful any of you actually have been–you’ll probably find people are more receptive if your dressed in a way that elicits respect from other people. Even in America or Europe, it’s not considered appropriate to wear your tube top to the office.

So, really? There is no reason for you not to at the very least dig out the t-shirt and the longer shorts or skirts when you are visiting another country where cultural standards of fashion tend to be a little more modest. You aren’t there to deliver the Great Liberated Western Culture to the Ignorant, Backward Others. You aren’t there to act like a superior, condescending know-it-all. You are there to see, experience and learn. If you are so convinced that our way of doing things is better and that their culture is so wrong and backward, why are you even there? You could just as easily run around in tube tops, drink, and party in a place where that IS considered socially acceptable and never have to worry once about whether the people around you are living up to YOUR standards.

@ Katie: You make a very good point that people shouldn’t necessarily equate tank tops with liberation. However, I don’t think people here were doing that–many of the above points were about how in a lot of places people assume that women who don’t cover up deserve to be harassed and raped. So in this case, being able to wear a tube top without getting harassed, raped, and blamed for it does represent liberation.

And I agree that if people are traveling simply to prove something or to preach to locals about their own cultural superiority than they’re missing the point.

However, I don’t think the people who disagree with this article are going around in halter tops giving sermons to local women about how oppressed they are. The point here is not that a tank top = liberation and covering up = oppression, but rather that women (and people in general)–be they African women traveling in the U.S or American women traveling in Asia–should be able to dress according to their cultural values without necessarily having to adopt the values of the culture they’re visiting.

Just to try a thought experiment, let’s say the title of this article was:

“Take that damn burka off!”

And the arguments supporting it were:

A) Your burka makes people uncomfortable, as most people in the U.S/Europe do not wear them and some people even see them as signs of oppression.

B) In the U.S. and Europe, it is natural for women to show their faces and hair, and not doing so will illicit stares and disrespect.

C) Traveling in the U.S and Europe, you should leave behind your own values/dress codes and assimilate with the locals.

The article reads differently this way, no? My point here is not at all that travelers should go around preaching about superior value systems, but rather that people should not always have to dress or behave according to local cultural values.

It’s not so much rather covering up is good or bad, or oppressive or not, but rather that the argument behind why women should cover up in certain places is part of another, larger argument that people–be they travelers or immigrants–should always assimilate to their “host” cultures instead of displaying their own dress and culture.

Eva sums it up really well here:

“In my book, cultural respect is a two-way street. I would never expect someone visiting Canada to change their style of dress to match what surrounded them — nor would I tolerate them coming to my country and calling me a whore for the way I dress. When I visit their country, I can likewise respect their traditions without necessarily embracing them.”

Fried Toast-

Would you actually read the previous posts from the people who supposedly don’t understand respect and consideration? Can you actually pull out some quotes and examples from those posts showing a lack of respect and consideration before you make condescending and self-righteous statements like “I find it hard to believe that there are that many people that don’t understand them”?

That would be more helpful, thanks.

@Sarah, good point too. I can only speak as a migrant to a Western country, but having been brought up in a “westernized” city, i haven’t had much problems assimilating as my ethnic colleagues have. Multiculturalism in this country (Australia) has had a fraught, testy and sometimes very fragile relationship with the local community. People who dress different or eat different face difficult psychological barriers of acceptance, made worse when they cannot speak English properly.

Racism and xenophobia have only very recently become frowned upon (by recent i mean the last thirty years – it’s been a long journey to acceptance), and has now become a “normalized”/naturalized part of society, but only because of changing social norms brought about by consistent, impassioned activism. So have gender and sexual rights. Entrenched values are hard to change and they take time, so all the talk about patriarchy, sexism, feminism etc cannot shoved down their throats by a visitor. It’s rude, it’s patronizing. The idea of “choice” is also not a natural value but one that has developed since the Enlightenment. We must remember that these are modern day values that while good, cannot be, i repeat, coerced into non-Western societies. You are not a walking billboard of American values, especially as a tourist, because you’ll always be an outsider until you show the people that you’re committed to changing their culture.

And Sarah, no one’s forcing anyone to cover up their tank tops if they don’t want to, unless you’re in a highly volatile country (or unless you’re in Europe and wearing a burka in which case you shouldn’t even be there. You have a choice to respect the local customs or to dress the way you prefer, but be prepared for frowns and silent unfavorable thoughts which you won’t know about anyway. Just like how my colleagues have adapted to the country they now call home.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone. Great discussion – keep it up.

And don’t be too hard on Fried Toast, Sarah. He’s a friend of mine

@Eva My last point (addressed to Sarah) was in reference to Tim’s and Sarah’s opposing views on respectful dress code as a cultural norm, not to prevent sexual harassment. But my previous point noted that the only way to make a real difference is to challenge the system through social justice and activism, and that takes time. We’re covering a lot of ground about different issues now aren’t we? Tim’s post never mentioned anything about covering up to prevent pesky male attention if i am reading him correctly. Yes, you should not be subjected to unwanted behaviour, but if you are, and you storm into a police station dressing like a skank (by their standards), no one is going to take you seriously. I’m sorry, but that’s real life. You know why folks in Washington DC are decked up to their necks in business suits and ties? It’s respectable. Professional etiquette gives you credibility, professionalism tells people you are serious. If you want to change a bad cultural norm, you don’t do it by demanding equal respect about how you dress by screaming and shouting on the streets. You take on the system, and i don’t think dressing down will help your cause.

But i digress…

That said, you have a choice. You have a choice to dress how you want, what to eat (or not to), to learn the local language or not, to stay with your tour group or venture out. Sure, you have a choice, you’re a visitor, people understand that you’re here to take pictures and contribute to the tourist economy, but if you’re sincere about wanting to touch base with the local populace, then maybe it’s better to make the choice that shows you respect what they respect.

Eva – at the expense of your own? Why is it so impossible not to wear a halter top? Why are you threatened by covering your shoulders? Throw on a tee shirt and get to know the locals. No one is asking you to wear a prom dress. Think what you will, but in Laos I watched the locals absolutely shut down around the skimpily-clad. There is something to be said for moving through this world with a little grace and part of that grace is honoring your hosts in their home.

You can’t enter a mosque or temple or cathedral or orthodox church anywhere in the world without covering your shoulders or knees -so let’s not pretend your being asked this for the first time. At my guest house in Laos it was obnoxious watching all these yoga bunnies thumping their nose and their ass-cheeks at the very kind and considerate appeal to wear a tee shirt and pants to the knee when out on the streets. To purposely disrespect that is elitist, arrogant, and smacks of colonialism.

TR – Read the thread. I’ve already made it clear that I always respect the rules in a house of worship, of any kind. I’ve also made it clear, I think, why it’s important to me to have the right to wear what I want outside of a church or temple — it’s not for the love of halter tops, but because of the long and ongoing history of women (and their bodies, and their clothing) being controlled by men. (And you’ll note, these clothing restrictions are almost always uniquely aimed at women, not at both genders.)

You know, the most troubling thing about this thread is the sexism that’s creeping in to a lot of the comments. TR’s reference to “yoga bunnies” is only the latest. It’s the set of assumptions that go with a particular style of dress (so far in this thread I’ve seen references to skanks and hookers a few times) that is so problematic. For what it’s worth, I don’t actually walk around — in Asia or North America — in halter tops and short shorts. But I will always defend the right of women to do so without being judged as whores or bimbos.

I am sorry Admin but your comparing apples to oranges and missing the point. In NYC we could care less what someone is wearing and expectations are up to personal choice and comfort. In Luang Prabang you are given a note at check-in asking you to please adhere to a local dress code – which is certainly not asking much more than to wear a tee shirt. There are beautifully carved signs all over town asking tourists, in the nicest, kindest way, to please respect the locals in the way you dress by making tiny, insignificant changes that mean a lot to the locals. Can you not see the difference? Is anyone handing the African on the bus a letter from the City of New York officially asking her to please not wear the head dress? No. Why would you even go there?

In the USA – when the sign says “no shoes, no shirt, no service” do you go in anyway because its your culture to go barefoot – no, you respect the wish of the establishment. It is very much the same thing.

Your changing the debate that was proposed by the author. The debate does not question your right to express yourself in any type of clothes you want. You have that right – you even get that right in places like Laos. No one is trying to take that away from you. The debate asks – is it bad manners to disregard the suggested dress code – yes, it is bad manners and it is rude. But no one is telling you cannot. Just asking you to reconsider. How hard is that? If it goes against the grain of your personal morality, for whatever reason, then don’t wear a tee-shirt. I am all for you. But don’t pretend that you’re not being rude – that’s what I am asking.

Yeah we totally digressed.. how did we end up talking about patriarchal oppression and liberation?

“Hey now – boys can be bunnies too and usually the worst offenders.”

Really? You get a lot of dudes in halter tops and short skirts in Luang Prabang, TR? Come on. Don’t pretend this whole discussion hasn’t been about women.

Look, someone up above (Cate?) said that different “please cover up” scenarios elicit different responses. TR, I haven’t been to Luang Prabang but some polite, friendly signage sounds like the kind of thing that would generate a positive response, from me at least.

What doesn’t generate a positive response? A bunch of men telling me to put some damn clothes on because I look like a hooker. Can’t you guys see that when you go on about skanks and whores you’re just proving our argument for us? There’s a big difference between “I’d really appreciate it if you cover your shoulders” and “Women who don’t cover their shoulders are useless skanks out to insult and disrespect everybody.” You really can’t see the distinction? You really don’t get what we’re objecting to here?

I didn’t make this a discussion about women and neither did the author. Eva, you get dudes in tank tops and you get shirtless dudes and both are seen as offensive in public. And its not the clothes that are offensive – but the disregard for the culture. The covering of the shoulders and the legs applies to humans in general.

And if you travel and pay attention then you know that in most of the world it is much more acceptable, or certainly more accepted, for a woman to wear shorts in public than a man. In most large cities in most countries – you wearing shorts would not get a second notice – me wearing shorts and I am instantly labeled as either low-class, a dumb American tourist, or a prostitute. Trust me that women do not own the market on being labeled by what they wear.

And, in the end, when you travel long enough – you also learn that in extreme heat – either desert or jungle – long pants and long-sleeved shirts keep you much cooler in the long run. And then you begin to wonder why we are even needing to have this conversation.

Well said Eve. I guess it is all about how you say it. Your pitch TR, is a little …..off.
One should never TELL a woman what to wear let alone venture down that “hooker” road discussion unless you are well armed.
In articles as such as this one, you would have been better to target both genders including the picture you chose, which is predominately of women. That’s if you wanted to stimulate a fair debate. Perhaps you had a hidden agenda in this discussion. Whatever it was you certainly got the debate going possibly for the worse. How about writing an article on how half naked hairy men need to cover up in these countries because SE Asians think they resemble gorillas. I wait with anticipation on a possible article.

I completely disagree.

If a muslim come to another country, would you expect them not to wear headscarfs, or a orthodox jew to shave his beard, or a South Asian not to use their sarong? If shorts are part of your culture, why should you be so ashamed of it? Shouldn’t travelling be about exchanging cultural values?

Sure, to use a bikini to visit a temple would be inadequate, but it would be inadequate to wear a bikini in a church too. So it has less to do with travelling and different cultures than with good sense. The same applies to people who smell. That is awful anywhere.

In fact, this article sounds very annoying to me. I am a Brazilian man, so I am not exactly “Anglo-Saxon white”, I am more of a mix of white, black and who knows what else mix. Despite of that, I admire the American (and European) culture and its values: respect for life, woman, democracy, freedom, individual rights, human rights. It may seem natural for people of our generation, but these things are not granted by nature to us, this culture was slowly conscructed along hundreds of years. However, now it came to a point where it seems that to show respect for other cultures, Americans should apologize for everything and I have to say that it is a shame because I think those values are the best the world has to offer.

So, every one who visits the US has the right to maintain their culture and wear their typical clothes and complain about it would be racism, however, Americans should adapt to local costumes?

Another aspect the writer failed to mention is that in a number of these countries where women have to cover themselves it is a sign of male dominance over them, while the “barely nude” women of America (or Europe) are so because they have the right to it. In fact, the only reason I would generally support women to try to match local clothes is that otherwise they would be in danger of rape, what would be considered ok in some cultures. After all, the women deserved it, as they were dressed like prostitutes, right?

Again, I am not American. However, living in a country where American-bashing is so popular, I am personaly afraid of the values these people are trying to impose on others. My government, for instance, stays silent regarding Darfur in order to “not interfire in other countries’ policies”, but it is quick to frown on Israel for fighting terrorism. Gosh, I am afraid of them. I would stick to American values any day.

PS:
I just read the comments and I am glad that a number of people noticed this too. Curiously, I think that the quote that best proves my point comes from someone supporting the article.
TR said “me wearing shorts and I am instantly labeled as either low-class, a dumb American tourist, or a prostitute.”
Why is he labeled “dumb American tourist” instead of simply “American tourist”? Yeah, exactly. I dispise that.

In the matter of dressing “appropriately” when one visits another country, what do you guys think of the “scandal” that ensued a couple of years ago when Evo Morales, president of Bolivia, visited Spain and wore an alpaca sweater when he met with the king? and a leather jacket when he met with the French president?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6061781

great article btw… i love BNT!

Mario in Cairo

Ha ha. You said hippie-bombs.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Great article. Scantily clad (and dirty) travelers have got to be among my biggest pet peeves. I’ve met so many women traveling in Central America who wear flimsy tank tops and short shorts, and then complain all the time about all the stares, comments, etc. Give me a break! I wear fairly conservative clothes when I travel in that part of the world, and I have hardly had any of the same problems (and no, I’m not ugly or anything.)

I wish travelers would show some more respect. It’s amazing how dressing neat, clean and relatively conservative will make locals in many countries so much more receptive and friendly.