The most obscene debate on the Internet

Giant kudos for this. Will forward it all over, esp. to nursing moms who are probably asking many of the same questions!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Great article!

Clearly you have never breastfed a baby that hates being covered. It becomes more noticeable when a baby is waving their arms trying to get the cover off and the mother is trying so hard to keep the cover on. The baby’s head is covering most of the breast anyway. Honestly, you see more breasts at the beach than a baby nursing.

Wonderful article, Leigh.

“cultural relativism – a concept that cultural norms and values derive their meaning within a specific social context.”

Debates of American ‘self-brand mgmt’ aside, here in France, that would most likely not be deleted. In fact, I’ve seen more provocative photos on facebook, let alone on bistro menus.

Is the reason you wouldn’t show your husband this article is because of the breastfeeding photos? My reply is WOW. That’s the problem in our society, lack of education on the entire breastfeeding subject. I on the other hand have no problem showing my husband or children the pictures on this article. We actually have a breastfeeding calendar put out by the New Mexico Department of Health that shows a lot of breasts with nursing babies hanging in my kitchen. My husband nor kids bat an eye to it because IT’S NATURAL AND NORMAL. By the way I also nursed my 4th child to 23 months.

Beautiful! Thank you for writing this!

Different cultures, different behaviours, different expectations.

There is a funny situtation I witnessed before having kids: a black woman in the Lisbon subway, with a child (a year-old or so). The baby started to cry and she bared BOTH breasts, and gave one to the child. Everybody looked at her completely stunned. She was totally unaware of how inappropriate that was in Portugal. When I think about this I still laughing, because it was funny.

Many times, after I had kids and breastfed them (and still do, the younger one), I remembered this situation. I often forgot my teets where exposed (at home… in public I was more careful, my objective was NOT to shock anybody)…
In my country, Portugal, it is possible to breastfeed in public without shocking people. At least I never had any consistent negative comment, quite the contrary. And we are a catholic country…

On the other hand, I don’t publish my own breastfeeding photos. Although I don’t criticize people who do it, and many times I even like them, and use them in presentations about breastfeeding, I feel MY photos with my kids are very intimate and I don’t feel like sharing them… funny, it is the 1st time I realize this…

Thanks for the article. Very good.

Excellent and important post!

I’ve long been a member of the Facebook fan group “Hey Facebook, Breastfeeding Is Not Obscene.” Facebook is just dead wrong on this and the pictures between the nursing moms & sexy photos demonstrate that without a doubt.

These were not taken in Pakistan or elsewhere, but in America where more is exposed on beaches and billboards. Still, it is a cultural shock for most to see a breast pulled out to feed a child & I think the open legged position in two of the photos here add to the shock value. ( Another trained habit, keep those knees together girls).

American culture promotes the babe in “bucket”, bottle fed, stroller, pacifier etc images because that is what we see in media along with the endless breast as sex object selling point. No wonder people are confused and shocked when they see reality.

I am pro breastfeeding, but I was shocked when I saw a woman just lift up her shirt and start feeding her baby the first time. It is something we need to see MORE of in our culture to offset all those plastic images that are not healthy for babies, women, men, families or a culture. Breastfeeding is MORE than feeding, it is about attachment and good attachment leads to a peaceful, loving culture.

Children NEED to see this natural way as well to counter act all the images and stores that only sell baby dolls with bottles, buckets. pacifiers and strollers. Even with my long term breastfed child ( who did child led weaning loooong past toddlerhood) who watches no TV, has been contaminated by the bottle/bucket /pacifier/stroller images as they are everywhere.

NONE of those things are needed to raise a healthy child ( & I used none), but they are encouraged by the corporate owned media because they all costs money along with all the baby crapola, so adds to the consumer, disconnected culture. No wonder people are shocked to see reality and do not understand the beauty of mom and baby breastfeeding and how that promotes a peaceful planet.

Once you breastfeed, you understand this in a different way. Breastfeeding is an art and can take a while to get it down. Trust me, if you have very large breasts, even wearing a special breastfeeding top, it is almost impossible to allow your baby to latch on without exposing your nipple. I envied small breasted friends who can just lift up their tops and be discrete so much easier. All breasts and all babies are not the same and you never know the whole story when you observe that stranger breastfeeding and what she has gone through.

I had a baby who was failure to thrive and we had to go to many doctors & OT when she was small, so we were out in public a lot trying to deal with that the whole first year. Breast feeding her was absolutely a matter of life and death and she was never anywhere near the minimal weight level for her age, yet was crawling well at 4 month, walking well at 6 months.

I had to work hard to make sure she got enough milk, more than she was using up with her high energy levels. I had plenty of milk and she nursed almost constantly, but she had problems taking the milk in.

When one deals with such things, modesty is the least thing on your mind, feeding and bonding with your baby is all that matters. Sometimes I did try that big blanket over both of us while we worked on latching in public, but you do look silly like that as well. Once latched on you can’t see much, unless you have a curious baby like mine that would turn her ahead all the time and go off the breast so she would not miss anything going on around her.

I tried public restrooms too when I could, but that also felt weird as she was FEEDING not eliminating. How would you like to eat in the bathroom, especially if it was a dirty or smelly one? Yuck.

So for those who say, just cover up, it’s not really that easy all the time. Some breasts will probably be seen if a mom is nursing in public, so if that offends you do not look.

In time, It all became so routine that I could be nursing her in a sling while in line at the grocery store and no one knew. But even at that stage, I could not do all my breastfeeding of my child in a way that my breasts would never be seen and have any kind of semblance of a normal life.

That’s what breastfeeding mom’s need is the freedom to feed their babies in the BEST possible way & Facebook and EVERYONE should support that as well as helping to educate the public. These kind of FB pictures educate the public and helps normalize it so it is not hidden away in our society ( like death is) so people can experience it and understand more.

According to the World Health Organization. The hierarchy for feeding your baby is: 1) breastfeeding; 2) the mother’s own milk expressed and given to her child some other way; 3) the milk of another human mother; and 4) artificial milk feeds ( bottles of formula).

Yet in 2004, the rate of exclusive breastfeeding through the first three months after birth was only 31% in the USA. So Sad!

If most new mothers could follow medical experts’ recommendation to exclusively breastfeed for six months, the U.S. might save $13 billion in healthcare and other costs each year!

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6342ZG20100405?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews

Moms need more support for breastfeeding. It’s better for babies and everyone. Wake up Facebook!!

No, I would say if you removed the baby from the picture it would STILL NOT be pornography, as there is absolutely nothing in the woman’s posture intended to titilate or sexually arouse the view – required elements for something to be defined as pornography. Nudity in itself is not pornographic.

Miriam-Webster online dictionary definition of pornography:

Main Entry: por·nog·ra·phy
Pronunciation: \-fē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek pornographos, adjective, writing about prostitutes, from pornē prostitute + graphein to write; akin to Greek pernanai to sell, poros journey — more at fare, carve
Date: 1858

1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction

“I for one wouldn’t want to see other ladies’ tatas exposed.” Then don’t look, but do stop telling others what to do. For many women, breastfeeding becomes the furthest thing from some secret, special act, especially as their children become a little older. Why not let them decide? Why make the crucial act of breastfeeding as difficult as possible to make yourself feel better?

All this prescriptive dictatorial manipulation of breastfeeding and women assumes a lot that’s untrue. That women’s nipples always indicate immoral sexual action, either recent or imminent. That men can’t control themselves if a woman breastfeeds in public (and shows her nipples). That children will be permanently damaged if they see a woman’s nipples. That photographs that include women’s nipples cause or increase violence towards women and children. And much else people are afraid of but probably haven’t a clue about.

As a researcher in these areas, I challenge anyone to prove any of the above statements or similar ones by reference to reputable literature on the subject. As for bodies, the American public is largely controlled by interests that gain, both socially and commercially, from telling women their breasts or nipples are obscene.

Other countries often think the USA is prudish in the extreme and cannot promote a major social good like breastfeeding because of its heavy discrimination against women. Stop telling women to be “modest” and “discreet”: they’ve been told that for centuries, told not to vote, not to get an education, not to work outside the home, not to sign financial contracts, not to dress certain ways; to be demure, respectful, accommodating (modest, discreet), and all the rest. Even if in 2010 women are theoretically equal to men, much of America still behaves as if they’re not. (And “equal” does not mean “same.”)

Facebook’s attitude towards breastfeeding is disdainful, demeaning, and unconscionably ignorant. Children are not harmed by breastfeeding but by attitudes like Facebook’s that promote irrationality and intolerance, as well as massive breast obsession and the epidemic of body phobia in which the USA is the “leader” in the Western world.

Facebook continues to capriciously deem any act of breastfeeding it wishes to be obscene. The deleted breastfeeding photos at http://www.tera.ca/photos6.html and the successive six pages there show that Facebook is careless and clueless in the extreme.

Other websites of similar size to Facebook or larger don’t arrogantly act as paternalistic, moralistic censors. Facebook pretends that it’s protecting children when it’s simply using them to justify its callous disrespect for everyone.

“There are many places in the world where women dress much more conservatively and yet breast feeding is used by almost the entire population.” Is that because breastfeeding is perceived differently there, i.e. as largely non-sexual?

In America, it’s a reasonable conclusion that making breastfeeding in public an event of personal embarrassment and censure has a serious negative effect on breastfeeding rates. If women have to take children out in public and feel in any way threatened by having to breastfeed there, they’re unlikely to pursue it at all. Many have in fact said just that.

“in the US it is currently my ‘right’ not to see naked people in the streets.” Is that true? You have a right to safety, order, and so on, but there’s no right not to be “offended,” to choose a common term.

Nudity is regulated at the state and lower levels. There are many places where there’s no law against certain kinds of nudity in public, believe it or not.

That it would make people uncomfortable is a real possibility, but that’s not universal. In any case, discomfort is not usually a good reason for legislation, even though many places create legislation on that basis or even less. Also, there’s a big difference between one naked person acting threateningly and a small group handing out brochures, engaged in body painting, or holding up signs on a protest march.

To illegitimize all nudity in public is repressive and uncalled for. There are ways besides the legal system to make it unlikely that someone will wear a bikini where it isn’t wanted.

Heather, I find your questioning of definitions of pornography to be very apt. Many Americans simply declare that any skin that surprises them or doesn’t fit their personal prejudice is pornographic.

Abuse of language should be a crime.

Wow – this is a fantastic debate.

I love seeing other women breastfeed in public as it not only gives me more confidence when I am feeding my own baby but it is natural and loving act. In response to the restaurant thread I try to patronise shops, cafes and businesses that openly support breastfeeding as much as possible and also recommend them to friends meaning nursing mums are good for business.

I am anxious about an impending trip to the US but I will be feeding my baby in public and I won’t be using a blanket. Anyone who doesn’t approve – bring it on! Here in the UK I have never had an negative comments – the opposite in fact (“Can I just say how lovely that is dear” etc).

What I do wonder is why so many mums (who bottle feed) seem to think I am a martyr to the cause in still nursing at 7 months? Its a lot easier and cheaper. Hmmm.

@Dr. Paul – Actually, I don’t see what you mean when you compare this to changing countries if you don’t like governmental repression…mostly because people in that situation don’t have that choice. Not so with Facebook. I don’t see the comparison. And how exactly is Facebook a monopoly? Isn’t MySpace and just about any other online community considered competition? I could be wrong, but I thought a monopoly happens when there is no competition.

And Flickr does censor. Photos are self-rated (Safe by default) and there is an option to report photos that are “mis-rated” for review by Flickr staff. See this link: http://www.flickr.com/help/filters/. Their guidelines on how to rate are vague and open to interpretation:

“Take the opportunity to filter your content responsibly. If you would hesitate to show your photos or videos to a child, your mum, or Uncle Bob, that means it needs to be filtered. So, ask yourself that question as you upload your content and moderate accordingly. If you don’t, it’s likely that one of two things will happen. Your account will be reviewed then either moderated or terminated by Flickr staff.”

But obviously they’re doing a decent job of this as there is has been no brouhaha to date (at least none that I know of).

Do you have a link to that discussion with the Spokesperson? I’d be interested to see what s/he said.

@Leigh I totally get what the real issue here is, and I agree that we do need to take a look at ourselves and figure out why many images that are mainstream aren’t considered porn/inappropriate while images of breastfeeding are. I’m just questioning what role Facebook has in this discussion (other than prompting it as a result of their bungling). I’m sure they ARE doing a shit job with their current system and it’s probably true that they have untrained/inadequate staff to deal with this.

I think what I was questioning when I first read this is why do so many people feel like such an injustice has been done to them? I guess the answer to that is many people just take Facebook much more seriously than I do. The way I see it, some person out there found a picture offensive and reported it, some idiot staff member probably didn’t really review it and just clicked the “deny” button (except for the cases where a nipple is showing…that’s black and white, isn’t it? If that’s what it states in their terms anyway). If there are still lots of breast feeding pictures on Facebook then that must be the case and they really need to work on straightening out their shit.

I don’t have a child (and may never have one) so obviously this doesn’t affect me near to the level that most of the people in this discussion are affected. I am just offering an objective viewpoint. I don’t have a “thing” in stirring up shit just for the sake of it. What I might be guilty of is being a little insensitive to how people view Facebook.

Amazing response! Wow! Between breast feeding and weaning, Matador’s readership or at least participation seems to skyrocket. Keep it up, I guess. . .

- Dr. Paul Rapport, Facebook’s “right” and “wrong” ARE relevant, and it doesn’t matter if you are not interested, because they are a private entity and as a result have the capability and right to control what is permissible on their site. Users sign a community agreement that hands over responsibility of the site’s censorship to an undisclosed board, and so the exact process is being followed. The issue of whether or not they are doing a good job of enforcing such policies is suspect to individual opinion – I for one have seen many cases in which they DID do a good job of deleting obscene photos (like complimenting a cop – rarely done by people but often legit).
- I agree that there is a difference between breastfeeding in private, public breastfeeding, and posting pictures of the breastfeeding process on FB (dependent on the privacy controls of the poster). A woman in America (one country out of over 200) has the legal right to breastfeed, but please do not take this to be the rule of thumb for the rest of the world. Pakistan is one example, I can cite several countries (maybe even a majority) in which public breastfeeding – let alone posting pictures of such acts, is forbidden. Without resorting to ad hominem attacks against “backward” or “ignorant” countries (whole new can of worms if you’re prepared to go there), America is a relatively new ‘social experiment’ – barely 300 years old. My experiences with China, a country over 5,000 years old (not that age alone dictates what is right or wrong, but it shows the historic stability or at least some aspects of the permanence of a society), is that public breastfeeding IS frowned upon and not due solely to. Keep in mind that much of this forum has been steered by Western-educated readers, and that a possible majority of people who are against such aforementioned breastfeeding practices may exist.
- Carlo – good job pointing out Dr. Rapport’s error (more than semantics at this point) in classifying Facebook as a monopoly (or even an oligarchy). By the way, do not assume that no competition = bad, even in a capitalistic economy, as state-owned industries can flourish and provide utilities that would be difficult to replicate by market-driven forces). Facebook was an early player/pioneer, and perhaps their policies regarding breastfeeding pictures should expand to other social/media sites? Just a thought…
- Please also note that the breast itself in the breastfeeding phase is different than that of the non-breastfeeding stage – the nipples are more swollen, the areola enlarged, and the breasts are larger. Perhaps exposure and publication of non-breastfeeding (phew, almost used the term ‘normal’, imagine the uproar) breasts are viewed as a symbol of beauty or essence of femininity, but not so much the swollen breasts of new mothers? Maybe this is the fundamental reason for such disparity in social / media depiction?
- I agree that a large percentage of the comments for this discussion topic have been pro-public breastfeeding / online pictures, but the demographics of such posters are also skewed towards women, and in many cases nursing mothers. If we placed equal weight on the views of males (who make up the other half of the public), one may find that it isn’t so one-sided as this forum suggests. If we want to be truly democratic about this – why not just have a vote (weighted with respect to equal gender representation) and see what it tallies up to be? There may be a false sense of communal agreement against Facebook’s policies since those prompted to write a comment may feel stronger than those who do not have anything vested in this subject (i.e. a single adolescent male). Be careful of representational bias, as the ‘public’ consists of both males and females (ages, backgrounds, religions, etc.) – and it does matter what the whole consensus is. If we don’t go the purely democratic route – then Facebook can just be authoritative (nothing wrong with that as a private enterprise) and say “no”, which what I believe they have chosen to do (even if it is inconsistent).
- There are some posters out there who feel entitled (key word) to post things like “well it’s my right…I don’t care if you have to see me breastfeed my kids…”, etc., etc. Well, at the opposite end, I can not care for your breastfeeding pictures and submit a complaint to Facebook?? I might as well say that my ‘community standard’ rights as I personally interpret them (in the demographic nexus of American society) for FB are being violated and I want to report these photo’s. In fact, I might just send a letter to FB telling them what a wonderful job they are doing! Such selfish choice to one’s personal rights without greater societal regard can easily slide down the slippery slope of ignorance…
- Dr. Paul Rapport – you do realize that in many cases you are the sole defendant of pro-breastfeeding / pro-breastfeeding online pictures in this debate, right? Your volume of replies implies that your rationale may not be entirely open to the ‘other’ side. Do you still believe that you could be entirely ‘wrong’ about this issue? If not – then your sense of infallibility may impair the function of a public forum to accurately represent the diversified viewpoints of all its viewers.
- No one has raised any doubts about the benefits of breastfeeding (yes – antibodies and nutrition, and recommended by some health agencies for certain durations), so let me poke some holes so that no assumption is spared examination. Breast milk, for all it’s pro’s, also has con’s – the accumulation of carcinogens & toxins in fatty tissue (i.e. breasts) can result in breast milk being somewhat toxic. In developing parts of the world where food/living standards are not being adequately met (think the opposite of organic) – encouraging long periods of breastfeeding may actually lead to future health problems for the child. This is not pure speculation (follow the logic) – I can post some scientific studies, but you are more than welcome to Google the toxicity of human breast milk. Even if the pro’s of breastfeeding outweigh the con’s (which I believe they do), I wanted to make sure that we don’t leave anything off the examination table.
- Personally, I have always wondered why female nipples were considered taboo in most parts (“most” – both area and population-wise) of the world. I personally wouldn’t mind topless women walking around or lounging at the beach or playing sports…scratch that last one, but seriously – maybe the policy should be changed so that topless women & photos of them should be accepted everywhere! Though as I presumed earlier, non-maternal breasts may be more sexually viewed than post-maternity ones due to physical changes…
- Can someone post some legit literature that shows bottle/formula-feeding is BAD (not just inferior to breastfeeding, we can mostly agree on that)? It’s not like bottle-feeding is the end of the world – so don’t relegate it as a no-no option that doesn’t even merit consideration.
- I have interned at several companies that provide ‘lactation rooms’ (seriously; in addition to prayer rooms) for corporate women who want to pump or breastfeed (Nestle Waters North America has one, office buildings in Stamford’s Tressler Boulevard share one between multiple offices, etc.). I’ve had limited exposure to the corporate world and can only attest to my own experiences, but the choice seems to be more and more available (though I wish sports ‘game rooms’ would also be available for guys)…again – seeking some immediate privacy in a public arena (i.e. restroom or car or patio or less-frequented room – just some ideas) is not the end of the world, they can simply be minor hassles (uh-oh, some feminists are going to pounce on this)…maybe instead of providing ‘equal opportunity employment’ for all cases, women could take a leave of absence without penalty (even though I have yet to see a good argument regarding why pay-for-performance should not be implemented in the Western economic world. If a woman leaves for maternity leave during a company’s busiest time and then takes frequent breaks for breastfeeding – why should a boss pay her the same as a guy who can actually WORK during that period?!? And why is asking if a woman is planning a pregnancy during the employment process illegal? That’s discrimination in the sense of I want to get a worker who can actually work the hours, and I see no problem in that, just as I saw no problem with me discrimination against the weaker/slower/less fit kids when choosing dodgeball teams? Let the market work!!!). Going to a market-driven plan free of protectionist policies may seem radical – but let’s not erase the thought completely.
- Mr. P.R. – I know you’re most likely going to have a response to me, but I’m ready. 23…in college…philosophy master’s (existentialism)…lots of time. Bring it!

Americans – some – can be hypocrites – this whole thing about sex and objects and turn ons and what a man will accept and what he won’t. As a country many are conflicted about nudity , nursing in public, and act out in inappropriate ways – claiming something to be obscene when it isn’t.

I think it’s often about what men want, don’t want, or can’t have. Not every case of course, but in many. My husband and I have discussed this many times. His daughters-in-law both nursed their children for 4 years.

If Facebook is going to allow any pictures of men showing nipples or in bikinis and pictures of women showing nipples or in bikinis what’s their real beef about mothers nursing.

Some one or some ones need to grow up.

maybe facebook should begin by not allowing people’s pages to be on public display in the first plce, it should not even be an option, it should just be, the only users really which should see are the user’s in which they permit. I think FB and other such mediums have a responsibility to ensure everyone’s privacy – the who FEED thingy is just ridiculous, I personally don’t want others ot see who I have been writing to or who has left a message on my page etc, it’s ridiculous, as far as obscene – well I’ve come across more obscenities on FB than one could even fathom, beginning with the amount of ugly feet, or arms, or outlines of penis’ in underwear or mens’ nipples etc splashed all over the place.

tipical american corporate fascism brainwashing b.s. there is nothing more natural than mother breastfeeding a child.period. you can show million human killed in most disgusting ways on american tv, but you will not see a breastfeeding. what a screwed up culture, what a f-d up society.

Brilliantly written article!

I deeply appreciated this article.
The big difference between showing a bloody vagina or lactating breasts is that mothers need to be allowed to nurse however and whenever their child needs to be fed. To be constantly worrying about how feeding one’s child is going to affect a bunch of grown-ups rather than focusing on the needs of the child is simply silly.

We have no need to be showing off our vagina’s publicly, bloody or not.
Until we normalize an action which is ENTIRELY normal throughout the world (i.e. breastfeeding) and practiced by all mammals, we will see bare breasts as only sexual and taboo. And yes, Katie, breasts are multi-functional, serving first as a lovely and pleasurable part of the sexual experience. But once they begin to fulfill their intended purpose (to feed a baby for however long a mother chooses to), they are no longer available in the same way.
It’s a huge and wonderful transition into maternity that separates women from maiden to mother and I wouldn’t have missed it for the world.
I am happy to report that after years of nursing my own three children, my breasts are again my own. They again are part of my sexual self–perhaps not as provocative to men as they once were but twice as pleasurable to my partner and me in large part due to the most amazing experience they provided me: I grew 3 beautiful kids on breast milk. I did it publicly when need be, regardless of the rude stares and comments. I never let myself forget that, world wide, nursing is often accepted and even revered.
What holier act is there than giving to a helpless infant the loving nurturance that is it’s birthright?

I think you’ve touched on the main point! This is that American society generally sees no difference, or is unable to see the difference, between what is sexual, and what is erotic.

the last three paragraphs – brilliant: short, to the point, and what an impact!

This article is pointless. Facebook is not a public service- they can choose to do whatever they want. If they wanted all the profile pictures to be only people’s elbows- those would be the rules you have to follow.

I agree that breast-feeding should be allowed in public, but again- Facebook is not public. If you want to show babies sucking your tits, make a Flickr account and move on with your life.