Notes on Ten Walks / Two Talks

Dahveed, can you recommend any truly “experimental” nonfiction/travel writing?

thanks for asking hal.

these guys would be a good start, and i’d bet the rest of their publishing house’s Dossier Series would be as well. (I reached out to them today)

i think most ppl used to traditional narrative nonfiction would find this work experimental, although it doesn’t feel that way to me personally

which i guess becomes a point of entry into another discussion – what is ‘experimental’ nonfiction?

in some ways there are no original forms, but just remixing the old. basho’s mixed haiku / journal entry travel books, for example: how many centuries ago were they written? what works / forms were they based on?

perhaps it’s more a question of cycles, of what people are currently trying now.

i think ‘experimental’ itself as a term is more a way of contextualizing the absence of notoriety or a common frame of reference.

for example, when DFW was first publishing his nonfiction it must’ve seemed very experimental.

now it just seems like David Foster Wallace.

but back to the ‘traditional’ – for me it seems like the elaborately structured narrative nonfiction style that was pioneered by writers like McPhee, Talese, Steinbeck, Hemingway, Wolfe, and Capote (and now has modern masters like George Saunders, Sebastian Junger, John Krakauer, Barry Lopez, Rick Bass) – somehow seems less interesting than it was when I first started trying to write around 2003-4.

i’m not sure if this is because i’ve started reading so much online and this has changed my perception of what seems transparent or ‘accessible,’ or it’s just a stylistic thing: i’ve always liked looking for something new.

recently i made some ‘notes to self’ on where narrative nonfiction seems like it ‘should be’ right now: http://www.miller-david.com/2010/04/20/notes-to-self-on-modern-narrative-nonfiction-writing/ *

[*rereading this post i feel like it's only about 67% true, particularly the parts about mimetic and diegetic storytelling 'vehicles' and the i-wasn't-drunk/stoned-when-i-wrote-it-but-it-sounds-like-i-was example involving deerhunter.]

all of this said, i can’t wait to read whatever barry lopez or rick bass or any of the other narrative nonfiction ninjas produce next.

but at the same time the bigger stoke is finding books like this one–seeing how ppl like these guys (Fitch and Cotner) and all other kinds of writers–some within our community at Matador–are trying out new ways (or new mixes of the old ways) to reveal place and character.

kinda feels like a shitty answer hal, sorry.

More than I was expecting, but not shitty.

Yeah, I guess “experimental” (or even a label like “new”) can only be subjective–even when the subject is an entire generation of writers/critics. We all take influence from something that’s come before.

Anyway, pretty psyched to start expanding my reading, and this post is a good start.

David,

“This “disorder” also seems to replicate the feeling of being in an urban area where there are constant stimuli.”

Now, how do you go about depicting “order” of a place, or “silence”.

Thanks.

thanks for commenting gbsnp varma, and for the question.

it seems difficult to answer without establishing a couple points:

1. there are always two different levels of ‘order’ (or ‘disorder’) happening simultaneously:

(a) the level or order/disorder of the external environment the narrator is experiencing

(b) the level of order/disorder of narrator’s consciousness as he/she deals with / ‘processes’ this experience

[you could argue too that there is also a third level (c) the level of order / disorder that the narrator 'constructs' via writing to depict (a) and (b). ]

2. in ‘ten walks / two talks’ the narrator’s external environment (a) seems highly disordered, but the way he seems to be experiencing that environment (b) seems very ordered or ‘grounded’.

he uses abrupt (or no) transitions from one sentence to the next to give the reader (c) that sense of disorder, but the sentences themselves–the way they’re mostly the same length and rhythm–seem to keep reinforcing the ‘centered’ (not really reacting to or feeling strong emotions, but just kind of observing) way he is experiencing them (b).

so if you wanted to depict a very peaceful or ordered environment (a), the key question is: how is the narrator consciously experiencing (b) this environment? what level of ‘disorder’ (distractedness, being ‘scattered’, or emotional) or ‘order’ (just kind of ‘taking it all in’ or ‘at peace with’) does he or she have?

regardless of what the external environment (a) is – how ordered or disordered it is – a state of zen or flow or peace (b) can often be depicted (c) when the following occurs:

a = b

this is how haiku seems to ‘work’

the narrator’s conciousness (b) ‘is’ (at least temporarily) the external environment (a)

the classic example is basho’s haiku:

old pond
frog leaping
splash

so to answer your question, this is how i’d ‘depict’ a narrator experiencing an ordered environment (a) with and ordered consciousness (b)

basically i’d just describe whatever scene it was without trying to explain or ‘qualify’ anything.

but if i were going through an ‘ordered’ place with a ‘disordered’ consciousness, i might try something like this: http://thetravelersnotebook.com/notes-from-road/notes-on-backcountry-visa-renewal/

here each sentence has the same rhythm / construction, pointing towards the overall order of the environment (a) — which is mostly just wilderness — however, i tried to depict (c) using a verb to begin each sentence — that the narrator’s consciousness (b) is disordered — he’s continually worrying, thinking, reflecting, emoting.

i hope that helps.

David, a deep bow to you from Manhattan. I agree with you that there isn’t
enough experimentation in travel writing. Instead of so much experiencing,
what about a coming together of inner and outer landscapes? I love Basho
because he makes everything new, touches everything with silence.

I am buying this book immediately. I will send you a letter from Manhattan
just to to imagine the mailman on his “shitty looking bike” delivering it to
you.

sweet robert, look forward to that.

if anyone else is interested, letters and books (if a book, make sure you mark as book in customs form) go to

David Miller
Perito Moreno 4567
El Bolson C.P. 8430, Rio Negro
Argentina

If anyone sends me a book that’s relevant to nonfiction / travel writing / writing on place, I will review it here.

David,

Thanks a lot for the explanation. It’s enlightening.

Your “Notes on Backcountry Visa Renewal” is heck of an REM of verbs.

Let’s call this experimentation state-of-consciousness writing.

What do you say?

thanks, glad it was enlightening.

i enjoyed the description ‘an REM of verbs’

i grew up in Georgia and was ‘heavily influenced’ by the band REM

although i realize you meant those three letters in a different way.

i also enjoyed reading but also felt conflicted re: ‘experimental-state-of-consciousness’ writing.

so i’m not sure i can call it that.

referencing hal’s comment above – ‘what is experimental’ – i didn’t really ‘set out’ to create that piece as something ‘experimental’ – i just wrote it in a way that made me stoked. i wrote what i wanted to read, if that makes sense.

i feel like fitch and cotner probably did the same thing with this book – like they just wrote something they wanted to read.

hope that continues helping.

ps–after these comments yesterday i referenced some of wittgensteins ‘philosophical investigations.’

there was one line in there about creating or ‘imagining’ certain languages. it went roughly like: ‘if you can imagine a certain language you can imagine a certain existence.’

Really nice discussion here.

The Wittgenstein remark that David cites is key for Ten Walks/Two Talks. In one of the talks — the Central Park talk — Andy and I discuss Wittgenstein’s idea that language is intrinsically connected with seeing, that we “see” as we “speak,” etc. Wittgenstein says that language forms the eyeglasses through which we see things. Which suggests the urgent need for us to develop a language of physical things if we wish to document physical things.

Of course we frequently see things without being able to describe what we’re encountering. But it’s also clear that the struggle towards description tends to intensify any given perception. Don’t we all draw closer to things during these moments? Through the use of stutters and stammers, Andy and I try to capture this process within the two dialogues.

Thanks for supporting the project, Robert. Feel free to share any thoughts…

Great post / thread. Going to buy this book now.

It’s not “experimental” as such but the ‘psychogeographer’ thread that runs from The Situationist / flaneur idea up to contemporary British authors like Will Self and Iain Sinclair (whose Lights Out For The Territory I’m currently reading/enjoying) is probably relevant here.

Jon/David, do you know these guys?

Another important point, Paul. And going further back, there’s Diogenes — the homeless ancient Greek philosopher who once said “The porches and streets of Athens were built for me as places to live.” Thanks to Diogenes we have the word “cosmopolitan” (he described himself not as a Corinthian, but as “a citizen of the world”). Diogenes practiced a life of voluntary poverty for the sake of this wandering, worldly at-homeness. Guy Davenport’s book Seven Greeks contains brilliant translations of Diogenes’ surviving fragments. Perhaps my favorite is “I learned from mice how to get by: no rent, no taxes, no grocery bill.” Near the end of Ten Walks/Two Talks, Andy and I consider Diogenes’ legacy.

P.S. We discuss Diogenes in the second talk, which takes place during a meal we didn’t exactly pay for at a health-food store that we call “W.F.”

Hi David,

” there was one line in there about creating or ‘imagining’ certain languages. it went roughly like: ‘if you can imagine a certain language you can imagine a certain existence.’”

How would you imagine a barren woman’s son?

Hi David,

There is a great explanation on Hindu Logos, given by Swam Bhajanananda of Ramakrishna Math & Mission( Reference: Prabuddha Bharata, May 1984)
What do we mean by words, language and their power, and how the spoken word trickles out of consciousness.
If you want, I’ll send it across. It’s pretty long for typing here.

Excellent Jon, looking forward to reading more about the meaningful meanderings of Diogenes in your book…we have a small but growing ‘psychogeographic’ section on my travel site here in Berlin, http://www.slowtravelberlin.com – I really enjoy this method of discovering a city.

‘How would you imagine a barren woman’s son?’

i’m not sure.

trying to put the first thing i imagine [sitting here in Patagonia on a snowy afternoon] and thinking ‘wind, snow, ridge-lines’ feels like i’m just inventing / contriving .

it doesn’t feel like my concrete reality

it doesn’t feel like my story to write.

trying to ‘make myself imagine how it feels’ seems on some level like ‘word-play’ or ‘thought-play’ [like it's a koan] and i feel like i can’t reconcile ‘engaging in this’ when i think about how it is someone’s specific concrete reality.

like me doing that is disrespectful / ‘leads nowhere.’

[although as a sometimes fiction writer i do this with my own 'people,' why?]

it seems on another level like it’s a concrete reality that exists and has always existed in a way that’s ‘pre-language.’

the wittgenstein quote is part of a philosophy that deals with the exact opposite ‘realm’ – it seems like – it’s dealing with the problems and issues that arrive when looking at the world ‘post language.’

like it would deal with the mother’s emotions, her existence.

and like the child seems free of it all.

send it.

i like epic length comments / conversations.

maybe fragment into several comments though if you feel like it will help ppl respond easier.

Thanks for the link. My friend/collaborator Andy Fitch spent some summers in Berlin. Excited to learn about what you’re up to over there!

Excerpts from Seeking God Through Meditation: The Three Streams, Swami Bhajanananda, Prabuddha Bharata or Awakened India, a monthly journal of The Ramakrishna Order, May 1984)

Sabda literally means sound but in Vedanta it refers to the particular manifestation of consciousness of which the grossest form is the spoken word. It is the meaning-conveying power of words. We cannot think or communicate without words. Behind every word there is meaning. What is meaning? It is a form of chit-sakti or power of consciousness which reveals knowledge and connects the subject with the object. Ancient Hindu grammarians called it Sphota. So then, behind every word there is meaning, behind the meaning there is Sphota and behind this power there is consciousness. This was one of the great discoveries made in India, centuries before Panini formulated his principles of grammar around 500 B.C.

It led to another discovery. If everyone gave his/her own meaning to the words one uses, it would be impossible for us to communicate with one another. This shows that all words, in fact all languages, are based one common universe of meaning. This means that there is one universal Sphota power associated with Brahman or cosmic consciousness. This universal meaning-conveying power is known as Sabda-brahman or Nada-brahman, the “Hindu Logos’ as Swami Vivekananda called it. It is because there exists this common universal substratum that it is possible for people all over the world to communicate with and understand one another even without the use of words.

How do we know an object? According to the Adviata and Samkhya theories of perception, the mind goes out through senses like a tube and takes the form of the object, while the light of Atman (called Chidabhasa) inside the ‘tube’ illumines and reveals that form of the object. But according to ancient Hindu grammarians, it is the Sabda-brahman that reveals the images in the mind and the objects in the external world and therefore, conveys this knowledge to others through speech. It is this revealing, opening, manifesting power of words that is indicated by the term Sphota.

The outward opening or revealing movement of Sabda-brahman takes place in four stages. In the first stage, called Para, knowledge remains as undifferentiated awareness. In the next stage, called Pasyanti, knowledge is split into the word (vak) and its meaning (artha) but these remain unseparated as one unit, like two halves of a seed. This is the level of intuition, the plane of buddhi, the Heart. In the third stage, called madhyama, knowledge gets separated into the sound symbol and its meaning— like a bubble enclosing a bit of air. This is the level of ordinary thinking, the plane of manas. Finally, when we speak, the bubble bursts and the meaning contained in the sound symbol is conveyed to the listener. This stage is called vaikhari.